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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
456
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Posted - 2013.01.12 08:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Wrong. The tier system itself needs to be revised or better yet, reduced to a secondary modifier for anything of value, direct benefits should come from using/upgrading the individual systems/constellations.
Just having the possibility of a factor 5, or however high it is, difference in earning potential between two sides for doing the exact same things is beyond stupidity .. it is downright insane. Doubly so when the system is set up to benefit whomever has MOAR! people (alts in FW's case).
Alternatively, they could fix plexing (yeah, STILL BROKEN!) so that near-gunless frigs with starter skills are not able to do anything other than die horribly.
Problem, as much as I am loathe to say it, is that the current system encourages/mandates an extremely heavy use of alts (circumvent docking, risk mitigation, LP, etc.) which gives CCP a very real incentive not to change it .. especially now that the world is just coming to terms with being poor (read. $-crisis ebbing out). |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 12:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Youre making about the same as minmatar because your stuff sells for more..
It is a decent enough fairytale, and I am sure the more gullible among the population sleeps better at nights after hearing it.
But for it to actually be true the Amarr bread-earner items would need to sell at 5+ times the value of similar items from the Shakorites .. guess what .. market difference is no where near that, more like +20% or so.
Perhaps you meant the underdogs could sell in volume .. no wait, that also does not compute as the x5 modifiers applies to LP which is the basis of all the earnings.
In short: Unless you as an underdog has a sugar daddy to dump billions into your account on a monthly basis you will in fact not get anything close to the resources available to your enemy.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
457
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 13:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Lord Rixus wrote:I suggest that when one side wins, everyone simply gets a one time reward of some kind and the battlefield resets.. and we start over.
Maybe a little immersion breaking, but I dont see why they cant do that... then everyone who band wagons to one side can jump back across the aisle at the reset, and hopefully the blob might go a different way than before.
Good plan except for the obvious: Territorial control is 99% alt based and unless an individual has a specific need for LP from "the other side" there is no reason to move anywhere ..
More likely scenario is that it would spawn even more alts and the farm kicking into high gear with both sides staying in tier3, getting 175% LP ...
The farmers need to die or their influence on the warzones removed .. CCP wants to and in their own delusional way tried to with the rat/plex changes but I doubt you'll find more than a handful (probably farmhand controllers  ) willing to say that it worked.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
458
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 18:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:im gallente the winning side but have an amar alt cos ur lps are worth more for the equivelant item in lp store the navy mega sells for no were near a napoc same with the domi to the neddon
simples ur lp is worth more
Lets do some look-ups shall we .. http://eve-central.com/ got you covered!
Navy Dominix: 270M
Navy Armageddon: 300M
Navy Megathron: 410M
Navy Apocalypse: 500M
Why yes you are absolutely right, Amarr LP is indeed worth more .. oh why did I not see that, nothing to worry about at all .. my beautiful teeth gnashed to dust for no reason!!
Question: Is <25% price advantage worth getting 200+% less LP to barter with in the first place?
Again, the "worth more" is a fairytale. Would you like to try again?
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
461
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 01:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dan Carter Murray wrote:until i see amarr mains or their amarr dplexing alts on https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx/ under "victory points last week" then idgaf who complains on amarr side about tier or LP. make a dplexing alt. mine has made me billions from dplexing while afk. on another note, anyone interested in donating 500 navitas and 1500 warp core stabs in myyhera please?
Back before hell froze over and LP was thrown around (first 2-3 years of FW), Sasa and I were on top on all lists concerning VP. He overtook me when I went pew focus only to refocus himself shortly thereafter .. the amount of time I spent orbiting for no gain other than to annoy other people scares the **** out of me today 
Now that LP has been involved for a year, I doubt any of us are even in top 20 as the farming literally and predictably went out of control, acknowledged by CCP when they made their infamous emergency change followed by npc/plex changes .. neither of which did much of anything to stem the tide.
The tier system itself is irrelevant. The problem is that as long as LP is associated with that which the tier is based on (plexes) and said plexes can be run in stabbed, cloaked throw-away frigs .. the whole she-bang will be run by farmers with everyone not willing or able to "roll an alt in enemy militia!!" relegated to being bystanders.
FW should be pew first and foremost, with farmers coming in once space superiority is achieved, not the other way around.
Edit: Just checked and seems that Sasa couldn't stop orbiting after all .. oh dear .. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
464
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 11:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:... then why does it matter if you make 10 mil per hour or 200 mil. I never heard any good FW player complaining that he doesnt make enough ISK and cant afford to fight anymore.
If FW was isolated from the rest of Eve then sure, the difference would be irrelevant, as farmers would just spend their LP/ISK to bling out their farm equipment while pew'ers got their running costs.
Unfortunately that is not the case. Revenue from FW can and is used all across the cluster and I bet that a majority of the vanilla militia farmers are null alts as they provide cheap (almost free) access to faction gear ..
To put it terms that your leet pvp centric mind can comprehend: Difference is one side getting to run in T1 cruisers while enemy runs faction cruisers, has permanent links, T1 logi, ewar, Titan bridges et al.
Just as in real life, ISK in Eve makes the world go 'round, the accumulation of said ISK is as much a part as PvP as actually shooting people in the face (especially for pew'ers with losses to cover) .. with one side being able to accumulate 5-6 times that of the opponent the whole thing suffers.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
473
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Posted - 2013.01.14 12:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:....
That I think is how most of us play, problem is we are a minority so small compared to the farming horde, as to have close to zero impact on that all important WZC as well as docking rights.
While I am not happy with the new plex access restrictions, the fighting within is still what makes me log on as you know what you get with limited tomfoolery involved.
Personally don't dislike PvE as such, my problem with the current (and previous) setup is that the PvP is by and large dictated by the PvE .. which again would not be much of an issue if risk/reward was in tune.
Running/stabbed/cloaked semi-afk frigs pulling in 50K+ LP per hour, controlling WZC and docking rights is not healthy for FW .. by all means keep it as is but then find some other way (read: PvP centric) of determining occupancy.
@Taoist: The butt-hurt, as far as I am concerned, is because FW could be so much more. A multi-region wide furball of small-gang, blob and solo skirmishing. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
476
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 21:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Except that those VP numbers mean absolutely nothing as long plexing is as dumbed down as it is ... all the alts from the nine month FarmWar are still in play with the only difference being some stabs and guns.
The VP count also does not differentiate between defensive and offensive plexing, so while one side might be swarming alts doing offensive for max LP gains the other might be doing defensive for nerfed LP gains ho hold on to a specific tier .. I know that was the situation last week on the Amarr/Shakorite front.
So no, the tier system is indeed not particularly conducive to a healthy and competitive atmosphere. Better than the spiking nonsense, but not by much. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
476
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 21:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:...Stop WHINING ABOUT THE ISK!
You are not getting what the complaint is, yes the individual intake even at tier1 is enough to keep the general population fed, but while you are living hand to mouth the enemy is raking in 4-6 times, that difference is then used to maintain the disparity by spamming faction hulls and even more plex-run alts .. 20-30 man FiS swarm with umpteen booster/logis/etc. is not really fun against vanilla T1 hulls.
X Gallentius wrote:The interesting thing to me right now is that all sides are racking up similar VP numbers - no matter what the Tier level is.
This "inconvenient truth" hurts all these arguments on how the Tier system is "evil" and "game breaking". But whatever.
Except that those VP numbers mean absolutely nothing as long plexing is as dumbed down as it is ... all the alts from the nine month FarmWar are still in play with the only difference being some stabs and guns.
The VP count also does not differentiate between defensive and offensive plexing, so while one side might be swarming alts doing offensive for max LP gains the other might be doing defensive for nerfed LP gains ho hold on to a specific tier .. I know that was the situation last week on the Amarr/Shakorite front.
So no, the tier system is indeed not particularly conducive to a healthy and competitive atmosphere. Better than the spiking nonsense, but not by much. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
488
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 00:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ideal scenario is both near midpoint in tier3 so we have a proper tug-o-war like in the old days (when it was done for honour and bragging).
Shakorites has/had a massive advantage in geography with more 'native' systems, most of which were tucked away behind a single access point .. that changed and the whole war changed. Why it wasn't done all those years ago when we first alerted CCP to error of their ways is beyond me ... best change to Amarr/Shakorite FW since navy frigs if you ask me.
Personal note: Curious how the Shakorites has apparently grown used to having a high tier with minimal LP investment so they now drop like a stone when the systems flip, makes one wonder if they even know how that part of the system works .. if they had any strategic sense they'd pump all systems, get as close to tier4 as possible and use that in the "motivational speak of the week".
All is pointless though as long as the wars are decided by whomever has the most alts .. wonder if we'll see a tweak or two come may to help stablilize it some or if it will be allowed to flounder until a whole series of changes are ready (ie. years from now). |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
490
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 11:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:...if i was minnie id save your lps. your store all but bottomed out. prices can only go up if t2 stays for a week or two
Did that market miracle happen for Amarr items? Did it happen for Caldari items?
Even if all militias maxed out all systems and did their damnedest to bleed it out through plexing I doubt you'd make so much as a dent in the LP stockpile built up during the nine month FarmWar .. and with a constant LP gain (even if just a trickle by comparison) I don't foresee much movement on the market the next year at least.
Hell, most markets had bottomed out prior to the FarmWar "expansion" due to excessive mission whoring ..
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
490
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 12:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:omg u guys are at t3 my alts making mucho isk from napocs and u guys are still complaining now because ur minnie alts lps are useless ......
You are making less and less sense by the day. Did you read the thread or even the original post?
We are nagging about the tier system, not that X is at tier Y. Could care less about winning/losing as long as I have equal opportunities and fun using them .. neither of which apply with current system. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
490
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 13:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:...veshta the system is same for all races u fight hard u get rewarded u slip by the wayside u get punished at the time of writing this the amarr have the upper hand with 2 systems ready to fall to put them infront capitalise on this and turn the amarr whiners into minmatar whiners.... someone has to be the loser/underdog
So what if it is the same for everyone, does not make the system any better, just as a rule saying that all marathon runners must have a pebble in their shoe at all times would make that sport any better.
Problem with tier system is that it has a whole slew of benefits for whomever is winning and diddly for whomever is losing, which makes any comeback dependent on a massive influx of people .. an influx that is doubtful in most cases due to Eve being all about wallet updates.
Amarr has made progress because of a drop in Minmatar activity coinciding with returning Amarr old-timers .. fighting (ie. fun) has not increased (but will when the excrement-infused-fan is aimed at Huola/Auga/Arzad).
System should promote fun and not hoarding .. tier system does not and should therefore be re-evaluated.
As for remaining LP, there was a prolonged period after the last cash-out with 90% of area vulnerable and being farmed to hell and back so yes I am quite confident that there are still billions of LP still sitting in peoples wallets as the items garnered from cash-outs has for the most part probably still not been sold .. market can only move so many units regardless of price.
Further on LP: There is only one LP sink and that is system upgrades, but guess what that does .. increases tier, which increases LP .. you'd need to have a faction spend all their LP on upgrades and then spin ships forever for that sink to have any noticeable impact.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
490
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
If anything, the recent Amarr surge should be reason enough to get to work on limiting the extent the generic farmer has on occupancy. Sincerely doubt the majority of plexing is done by mains or even primary alts .. it has quite simply been way too fast.
CCP keeps saying they will tweak system when flaws are made apparent .. well CCP .. how is single anaemic rat, the death of which stops all future spawns, in plexes working out so far? Tier system is slightly better than the FarmWarGäó version, even if skewed enormously in the 'winners' favour .. keep it as is but do your damnedest to nuke farming .. or limit it to a token effect and keep farming, whichever lets you get your drink on, on schedule.
Was actually working pretty well in the short period where we had the old spawns with must-kill rule in effect .. tags were flowing like never before (exact opposite now) and farming was so involved that it was only done by a handful.
Approximate that situation, add a couple of rats per plex, have variable and much shorter time in which to kill them to prevent future spawns (ex. Novice/Small: 2 minutes, Medium:3-4 minutes. Large: 5 minutes) .. should be enough to make frig plexing in all but large a thing of the past .. wasn't it part of the plex changes that the intention was to make people use appropriate ships or gang up?
PS: Before some idiot says "OMG, Amarr is ahead and now want to nerf plexing to hold their space!" .. reset, give all space to minnies, wait until it turns .. makes no difference. The plexing game will be better for it, markets will stabilize, tags will be available and we get more pew because people can't use 'insert cheapest available frig with 50dps here' with stabs and cloak any more. |
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